Mely ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2009-03-07 19:46:00
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Entry tags:fandom, gcadod09, race, sf/f

The People Whites Don't See: An Open Letter to Kathryn Cramer
Dear Kathryn,

This is in response to your email of March 5, in which you said:


I am writing to inform you that I have filed a complaint with
LiveJournal against you for libel, harassment, and incitement of
others to defame and harass me.
 
You are aware that I consider your claim “Kathryn Cramer has been
linking my LJ to my full name on wikis and in other people’s blog
comments” defamatory and you have been given several days to retract,
apologize, or in some way correct the situation. Instead you have
incited your supporters to further harassment and defamation of me.
 
Please remove my name from all sites with which you are associated;
remove all claims about what you claim are my actions; remove all
links to my website; remove all links from your site to others making
defamatory or harassing statements.
 
Please cease and desist from all further harassment and defamation of
me and from encouraging others to harass and/or defame me



You are incorrect in all particulars. My statements about you are not libel or defamation because they are true. I linked to your previous statements on Web sites including your own to provide proof of my claims. In my initial statement, I explicitly requested that visitors "not engage" with you, i.e., not to speak to you, as part of my overall stance against harassment.

Violation of privacy
You have attempted to link my full legal name to my LJ in contravention of my expressed wishes on the Feminist SF wiki, your Web site, and Will Shetterly's WordPress blog. (Please see initial post.)

Defamation
Your statements about me in this series of arguments have included:

Can I just say, for the record, that I think it is wildly unethical to flame, under a fake name that you refuse to associate with your real name and history, your former boss and people you formerly worked with at a company, especially like claiming to take the moral high ground on an issue like, say, race. I am appalled, just really appalled, & even more appalled by people who think this is a legitimate use of an alias. It is not.
{Screen capture courtesy of bof at unfunnybusiness.}

Blogger Kathryn Cramer said...
You know, I just found out earlier this afternoon that one of the LJ combatants, who refuses to allow her alias i.e. false name to be public used to report to and work for people she's flamed and inflamed other to criticize. I think this is wildly unethical.

Is MORE of that kind of stuff hiding under other of these aliases?

February 6, 2009 2:40 PM


  1. Please explain to me what in this post and this update constitutes a flame. (As a bonus, please explain how Teresa Nielsen Hayden's post is not a flame, and why you think other people would not have criticized her behavior without my input.)

  2. You have strongly implied here and at various places in Will Shetterly's WordPress blog (which I am not linking to because I refuse to reread its comments) that I have participated in the series of discussions called "The Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of DOOM '09" or "RaceFail09" in order "flame" the Nielsen Haydens. Please explain how this works with the following timeline:

    1/15/09: My round-up of GCADOD09 posts for the Aqueduct Press blog, cross-linked at my LJ

    1/19/09: Patrick Nielsen Hayden's first participation in GCADOD09

    1/22/09: My second round-up of GCADOD09 posts for the Aqueduct Press blog, cross-linked at my LJ

    1/26/09: Teresa Nielsen Hayden's first participation in GCADOD09

    1/27/09: I post The elephant in the room, on the GCADOD09, using Teresa Nielsen Hayden's post as an example "not because it's exceptional but because it is in fact typical of how debates on race and cultural appropriation get misdirected."

  3. Please also explain how I was hiding my identity from you or the Nielsen Haydens in a LiveJournal [info]pnh friended a few years ago*, with a user profile that lists my very identifiable first name, in a post that is signed with my very identifiable first name.

    * I have no idea how often [info]pnh reads his LJ friends list, or with what filters, and have no idea whether or not he was aware of my previous involvement in GCADOD09. [Deleted because.]

  4. Please address any of the points I have made in "The elephant in the room," up to and including how my work history bias has distorted the actual arguments, instead of resorting to the same kinds of misdirection described in the original post.


To discover this history, all you needed to do was look at my LiveJournal, or at the Aqueduct Press blog, where you posted in the comments, and which, up until yesterday, you have had linked on your blog sidebar as "a fine feminist blog."

Harassment
You have been insisting I've been hiding my identity from people who had a right to know when talking about an LJ which has my first name on the user profile and a post which I signed with my first name. If this is all about some certain section of people in sf fandom knowing my employment history, rather than all readers of the original post knowing my employment history, I don't understand why you didn't email, IM, write snail-mail or speak face-to-face those people to begin with. If it's about the general public knowing, I don't understand why you wanted the general public to know about me only up until the time I actually sent them to your page for information.

This suggests to me that your behavior (the outing, the encouraging Will Shetterly and his commenters to out me, and the defamation) have been an attempt to punish me for posting or blackmail me into taking down my post.

Racism
You've said:

However . . . I don’t see how there can be a coherent narrative over there of what happened without a simple who said what mapped, for the most part, to actual people. It is especially bizarre to have entries for people and discussions of things said by a particular LJ handle for that person without it being allowed to make a link between the two: a kind of simulated schizophrenia.

One thing I really don’t get: if this is supposed to be about race, how is the(white) Fearless Leader able to con her followers into being interested in it when she picks a fight with (white) me? Don’t they have, like, homework at these fancy schools anymore?



And also:

While her lizardoid minions were passing through my blog this afternoon, I took a whole bunch of screen shots. They go to Harvard. They go to Princeton. They go To Columbia. They go to NYU. They go to Oxford. They go to Cambridge. (I kept doing it until I got really bored.)

While surely some of those people are on full scholarship, it strikes me as highly unlikely that all of them are. It cost two hundred grand to get an undergrad degree at Harvard these days. Downtrodden? Yeah. Right. Suuuure . . .


The racism, classism, and general illogic of the second quote have been dissected by [info]darkrosetiger and [info]delux_vivens, but I wish to also point out what they probably felt was too obvious to say, which is that referring to people of color as "lizardoid minions" [eta: see also] participates in a long history of racist imagery that debases people of color by referring to them as animals, as well as a long history of racist conviction that people of color must be "minions" or "followers"; that they cannot address their own oppression, or indeed anything about their own lives, without the assistance of white people.

Your actions, Kathryn, are racist not because they are an attack against me -- white women cannot be the victims of racism, which is the institutional operation of white supremacy -- but because they erase people of color from the conversation. Because it is easier for you to believe the dozens or hundreds of posts made so far in this series of arguments are about one white woman's grudge against other white people than that people of color are involved in science fiction, that they have spoken up for themselves at length and repeatedly, that race and racism in science fiction fandom, literature, media, and publishing continue to be the elephant in the room.

This elephant, Kathryn, is a metaphorical construct made out of real people. You are looking right at these real people. They are right here. They are in this virtual room. They are speaking. They are reading books, and writing them, and writing about them. Why don't you see them?

eta: Also see Shutting Down Discussion Is Wrong.


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(116 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]la_vie_noire
2009-03-08 12:57 am UTC (link)
...

I'm... speechless. Truly speechless

So she does some very insulting shit, and she is "filling a complaint" because you said she dis insulting shit?

God. Please. I'm just... please. Not enough dots.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]la_vie_noire
2009-03-08 04:34 am UTC (link)
I also love how you are the fearless leader. White person talking = OBVIOUSLY LEADER. POC ARE MINIONS AND THERE IS NO DISCUSSION.

(I know I'm late, but kinda avoided reading her whatsoever.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2009-03-08 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]la_vie_noire, 2009-03-08 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2009-03-16 06:13 am UTC (Expand)

[info]laurashapiro
2009-03-08 12:59 am UTC (link)
::applause::

(Reply to this)


[info]deepad
2009-03-08 01:00 am UTC (link)
I stand by this representation of events, and I support the arguments made in this post, as well as, very strongly, but not as a minion (three-tongued but not lizardoid), the person posting this.

(Reply to this)


[info]cofax7
2009-03-08 01:10 am UTC (link)
Libel, or defamation: publishing a false statement of fact that is likely to cause harm to the reputation of an individual.

Nothing you have said is defamatory, and Cramer is wrong like a wrong thing to claim so.

And, of course, in the US when dealing with a private individual, truth is an absolute defense. It is not defamation to point out that Cramer posted your full name on her blog and in other places: it is the truth, no matter how she tries to hide it.

To law-geek a moment: in order to make a defamation claim, she also has to admit that being accused of exposing your legal name is injurious to her reputation. If she's so convinced that pseudonyms are Teh Evil and only people who use their full government-approved names on blog comments are good people, how is it wrong for her to expose this horrible behavior? Isn't it in fact her moral obligation to do so, and therefore not in fact injurious to her reputation to become known for doing so?

Logic Fail.

Anyway, this is all about harrassment, and I hope she comes to her senses and leave you & Oyce alone. I want to hear what you think of SCC!



Edited at 2009-03-08 01:12 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]justinelavaworm
2009-03-08 03:42 am UTC (link)
That's exactly it. Spectacular logic fail. Nothing she says makes any sense.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]fridgepunk, 2009-03-08 02:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daniidebrabant, 2009-03-08 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]katie_m
2009-03-08 01:12 am UTC (link)
"Con." Yes. You're a sneaky one, Mely. A conniver, even. You and your minions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cofax7
2009-03-08 01:14 am UTC (link)
I thought I was [info]infinitemonkeys' minion? It's there in my profile! Am I allowed to minion two people at once?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]srallen, 2009-03-08 01:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]noelleleithe, 2009-03-08 02:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]katie_m, 2009-03-11 12:20 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ellen_fremedon
2009-03-08 01:14 am UTC (link)
I keep thinking she can't get any more horrid. And then she does.

You deserve some kind of medal for staying so sane and gracious.

(Reply to this)


[info]lanning
2009-03-08 01:26 am UTC (link)
I admire your restraint in the face of such outrageous provocation. Her arrogance and ignorance is beyond belief.

(Reply to this)


[info]skywardprodigal
2009-03-08 01:28 am UTC (link)
Good post. I cosign all.

(Reply to this)


[info]snacky
2009-03-08 01:32 am UTC (link)
Wow. It's a non-stop merry-go-round of Fail.

The kind of merry-go-round that goes way too fast and makes you nauseated, not the fun kind.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]comice
2009-03-08 01:46 am UTC (link)
What she said. This is just so ... unspeakably awful.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]vonnie_k
2009-03-08 02:00 am UTC (link)
... boy, she has some wildly creative ideas about what libel and defamation mean, doesn't she?

I admire you greatly for the strength of your convictions, and most of all for not losing the sight of what was in the heart of this debate at the beginning, despite having to weather through a particularly vile brand of shitstorm and wankery that are hurting you so much personally.

(Reply to this)


[info]lnhammer
2009-03-08 02:06 am UTC (link)
Oy.

I can say no more that others are not saying, aside from thanking you for the appropriate icon concept.

---L.

(Reply to this)


[info]lavendertook
2009-03-08 02:10 am UTC (link)
Oy. And yes.

I like your title, btw. I was looking through that story again the other day thinking about doing a parody with the title, "The People of Color Whites Don't See," so the meme is out there.

(Reply to this)


[info]yeloson
2009-03-08 02:13 am UTC (link)
Perhaps we're not an elephant, but a unicorn! A multi-headed hydra unicorn made all of sockpuppets, minions, orcs, and lizardoids! We are Legion! SF/F is so imaginative!

And then, "...but they don't go to conventions!"

Wonder why.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]elusis
2009-03-08 10:54 am UTC (link)
And then, "...but they don't go to conventions!"


Well, all those heads won't fit through the doors, obviously.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ithiliana
2009-03-08 02:20 am UTC (link)
Superbly written and supported--and I cannot believe that she is trying this given what is actually on record!

And, seconding or thirding the great title for the post!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-03-08 03:15 pm UTC (link)
I cannot believe that she is trying this given what is actually on record!


I can. Who are 'the authorities' going to listen to, a Sensible White Lady, or a Crazy Self-Hating White Woman and her Herd of Minions? Because she is unwilling or incapable of seeing the humanity of the people who are criticizing her, she's assuming the rest of the world works that way too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shewhohashope
2009-03-08 02:22 am UTC (link)
You are incorrect in all particulars.

... and that's all there is to say.

(Reply to this)

Coffeeandink's Open Letter to Kathryn Cramer
[info]pingback_bot
2009-03-08 02:29 am UTC (link)
User [info]ithiliana referenced to your post from Coffeeandink's Open Letter to Kathryn Cramer saying: [...] Well reasoned and thoughtful response to Cramer's email noting complaints she has lodged against Coffeeandink [...]

(Reply to this)


[info]tournevis
2009-03-08 02:33 am UTC (link)
*support*

(Reply to this)


[info]gwynnega
2009-03-08 02:45 am UTC (link)
I admire your cogent, sane response to this truly vile and insulting behavior.

(Reply to this)


[info]agrumer
2009-03-08 02:56 am UTC (link)
I know that sometimes when someone says something stupid and offensive on the Internet, other people like to adopt that thing ironically, like Avalon's Willow's adoption of "Orc Goddess". Be aware, anyone who decides to dub themselves a "lizardoid minion", that this is a term of self-description used by fans of the right-wing pro-war blog Little green Footballs, which is infamous among political blogs for the racism and other bigotry it allows in its comments sections.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coffeeandink
2009-03-08 02:58 am UTC (link)
I didn't know that, obviously, so thank you for the fyi.

That ... actually does not make things any better.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2009-03-08 03:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dharma_slut, 2009-03-08 03:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-03-09 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]blackbird_song
2009-03-08 02:59 am UTC (link)
Here via [info]ithiliana.

I've been lurking around all of these issues whilst trying to continue unpacking my privilege, and just wanted to pause for a moment and say that I support everything I've seen you write concerning all of this. I'm terribly sorry that you have been treated as you have, and applaud your reasoned, flawlessly supported and immensely strong stance as written here and elsewhere.

As to Cramer's actions and statements, they defy reason in the worst of ways. Everything she and Shetterly have done during the short time I've been aware of their existence has been illuminating and appalling. I'm sorry that you have been targeted by them for daring to challenge them, but very grateful that you have allowed us to see both what has been happening, and the people to whom we should be listening. Thank you.

Catherine

Edited at 2009-03-08 03:02 am UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]umadoshi
2009-03-08 03:35 am UTC (link)
I'm morbidly curious about what she actually thinks the word "defamatory" means, since her interpretation has so little connection to reality. This is an incredibly civil response to some truly crazy and damaging behavior.

(I haven't yet read all of the posts you linked to in your conclusion, so I guess I'll be doing that for a while longer tonight.)

(Reply to this)


[info]annlarimer
2009-03-08 03:39 am UTC (link)
Jonas H. Krishna on a box kite, will she ever learn?

(Reply to this)


[info]darkrosetiger
2009-03-08 03:55 am UTC (link)
On point as usual. She's closing her eyes and saying "LALALALAICAN'THEARYOU" because if she acknowledges the Hordes of Mordor, then we exist, and all of a sudden, it stops being about her.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]imaginarycircus
2009-03-08 04:36 am UTC (link)
While I think you are spot on I'm imagining Saruman looking out on his Uruk Hai army and it looks like Nuremberg... I just broke Godwin's inadvertently. Damn.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]color_blue
2009-03-08 04:06 am UTC (link)
I find Kathryn Cramer's words and actions morally reprehensible on many levels, and support everything that you've said here.

(Reply to this)


[info]moondancerdrake
2009-03-08 04:09 am UTC (link)
This feels very much like a bully going to complain to a teacher because the person she was hurting decided to stick up for themselves and the bully ended up with a bloody nose.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-03-08 03:15 pm UTC (link)
Yes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]yukie1013, 2009-03-09 01:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-03-11 01:08 am UTC (Expand)

(116 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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