Mely ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2009-03-04 05:54:00
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Entry tags:fandom, gcadod09, race, sf/f

Guess who managed to escalate the situation again!
This is Will Shetterly's latest post:

This keeps coming up, so I’m interrupting my internet holiday:

Micole says here that she briefly outed two fans, then took the information off the public web. I outed her briefly, then took the information off my sites entirely. It’s not in a “friends only” area. It’s gone. She is as safe from me now as those two fans are from her. I will not out her or anyone again. As I realized after I briefly outed her, everyone’s shit is theirs to live with.

ETA: I’ve been informed that Micole hadn’t known her brief outing was an outing. Apologies for making it seem like that was my point: my point is that she is just as safe as those two fans are now. She will not be outed. Nor will anyone else.



No, Will. I am not as safe. And the situations are not analogous.

You seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension. Perhaps if you try reading people's posts and comments aloud, you will be able to hear what they are saying rather than what you believe they are going to say.

I am going to skip the link gathering because I am very, very tired and also because, as usual, you have deleted half the evidence. Since you have complained about the irrelevance and painfulness of having to document the statements you make--I believe you suggested that people who asked for evidence of your statements were trolls?--I am sure you will not mind.

When you posted my full name, I assumed you had done it in ignorance, or I would not have bothered to write you. I did not bother to write you about your many, many misrepresentations about my personal life because of previous history. I asked you to take down my last name and to refer to me by my first name, my nickname, or my LJ handle, as that is how I prefer to be called, and I thanked you for your time.

You did take down my last name. You replaced it with [LASTNAME REDACTED] and a complaint about my unreasonability in expecting you to respect my privacy preference. You encouraged your commenters to seek out my name, to post it in your comments on LJ and on your blog, and in their own LJs. You insulted me for not thanking you, in public and in email. You posted my full name again and took it down again several times. You complained in your comments about how your chivalry caused you to protect me. You replaced my last name with "ATTACKSANONYMOUSLY" and other insults I have now forgotten. You claimed I had suggested a boycott of Tor, even though I have never done so, and encouraged many of your commenters to believe I had suggested or encouraged that you be forced to leave Shadow Unit, even though I had never commented on it. You once again encouraged your commenters to post my full name. You tried to out me once again on the feministsf wiki, based on the argument that no one on the antiracist "side" was "forced" to reveal their full name, apparently having neglected to read the page you were editing, which linked to Mary Dell, Yoon Ha Lee, N.K. Jemisin, K. Tempest Bradford, and Kate Nepveu, and having forgotten that you yourself had several conversations with Mary Dell during the course of the arguments.

When I went public, you called me a hypocrite and a coward and told me to "own my shit". As I had in fact linked to Kathryn's outing of me, which by this point has been seen by several hundred people at minimum, I am confused as to what more "shit" I am supposed to own.

Your response to my outing was: "P.S. Micole? Take a break. It ain’t near as big a thang as you think it is. Or, if you want enemies, aim for more powerful ones than Kathyrn or me. Always dream big!"

Yes. Actually, Will, it is that big.

You outed me after people told you and told you and told you this was wrong and dangerous. You outed me knowing nothing of my circumstances. You outed me having been warned it could expose me to physical violence, sexual abuse, personal harassment, and professional and personal hardship. You outed me, you kept re-outing me, you encouraged others to out me.

You have offered several different explanations for why you felt justified in outing me. Sometimes it is because I criticized Teresa in a post whose criticisms you have never attempted to discuss or address in any way. Sometimes it is because Emma and Patrick got hurt in RaceFail09, even though I said nothing about Emma and only spoke about Patrick in that post you haven't ever actually bothered to discuss. Sometimes it is because I "attacked" Kathryn by linking to her own words and, in fact, allowing her the opportunity to publicize the information about me she apparently desired to publicize up until the time anyone actually tried to read it. However, the present and most consistent explanation appears to be that you felt I criticized you unfairly. Allegedly, I criticized you unfairly by linking to YOUR OWN WORDS, with as much context as it was possible to provide after YOU DELETED THE ORIGINAL CONTEXT, and by linking to YOUR OWN REBUTTAL in both the ORIGINAL POST and A SEPARATE UPDATE.

Man, I wish I had enemies that malicious and unreasonable, instead of nice guys like you.

You have not apologized for any of this. You have not attempted to make amends for any of it.

Your apology, frankly, would be worthless to me. Your "assurance" that I am safe is worthless to me, not to mention inaccurate, as it cannot retract the information already out, widely disseminated and re-disseminated. Your word is worthless.

You outed me either for criticizing your behavior in discussions of race, or for criticizing the behavior of your friends in a discussion of race. You have proven quite conclusively that it really is unsafe to discuss race in sf fandom. You have proven quite conclusively that sf fandom is pretty much unsafe for anyone who has trusted you or someone you might talk to with information they do not want to reveal. You have done me profound damage. You have done sf fandom profound damage. You do not appear to recognize any of this.

This is what I would like:

  • I would like you to consider yourself under a restraining order against me. You may not email me. You may not speak to me. You may not write me letters. You may not attend conventions I attend (for the record, Vividcon, Wiscon, Readercon).

  • You may not write or speak about me, either by name, nickname, LJ handle, epithet, or allusion. You will delete every single post you have ever made about me and every single comment. You will delete the comments in your space that out me. You will not encourage others to out me or to insult me.

  • As an exception, since I do not intend to take down "Will Shetterly: DO NOT ENGAGE", you may keep up your rebuttal. In this rebuttal you are to refer to me only as "coffeeandink".

  • I would also like, frankly, for you to be shunned by sf fandom and to be banned from congoing until you have established by honest contrition and consistent and long-term improvements in behavior that you can be trusted not to out fans, to abuse women who disagree with you, or to make conventions unsafe for people of color and their allies. Like Rachel/the Something Awful Poster who harassed Wiscon attendees last year, you have betrayed the common standards of fannish and human civility. You cannot be trusted. You should not be permitted to harm more people.


I do not, frankly, think any of this will happen. I do not think you have the maturity or grace to realize what you have done or to effect change. I would like to be surprised.

I do not think sf cons will ban you. I have received a lot of backup from media fans, from POC, from individuals in the feminist sf community and some individuals in the sf literary community. I have witnessed a few of your friends call you on your behavior, and although I think they did it out of their own senses of honor, rather than any personal attachment to me, I nevertheless appreciate their actions.

However, and in general, the silence from sf fandom has been pretty fucking resounding. Apparently, it's a very, very, very big deal when a woman of color criticizes someone's book, or when a white editor's feelings get hurt, but outing someone's legal name on the Internet? That's not worth a mention.

Thanks, sf fandom. I hadn't quite understood my place. It's a lot clearer to me now.


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(148 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]maevele
2009-03-04 11:17 am UTC (link)
good lord. (hugs)

(Reply to this)


[info]oyceter
2009-03-04 11:19 am UTC (link)
I HATE THEM SO MUCH. *big hugs*

(Reply to this)


[info]rydra_wong
2009-03-04 11:36 am UTC (link)
You know, you'd think he might grasp that if you're getting supportive comments from Luke "Igor Sanchez" Jackson, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

I'm so very sorry that you're having to deal with this shit.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cofax7
2009-03-04 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Holy fuck, seriously?

What I miss when I decide to sleep in instead of catch up on LJ!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]musesfool
2009-03-04 11:41 am UTC (link)
*hugs*

(Reply to this)


[info]staubundsterne
2009-03-04 11:48 am UTC (link)
The amount of vile behaviour in this whole attempt to derail is beyond disgusting. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.

(Reply to this)


[info]shewhohashope
2009-03-04 11:50 am UTC (link)
I do not, frankly, think any of this will happen.

Well, I was hoping that you wouldn't hold your breath.

(Reply to this)


[info]pigeonhed
2009-03-04 11:50 am UTC (link)
I didn't know about this.

I didn't know your legal name was not public domain or that there was any potential harm attached to it being 'outed'. Had I therefore accidentally outed you that would I guess have been insensitive and careless and I would on being told, have apologised and done what i could to rectify any damage.

However, if I was advised in advance that you had good reasons not to have that name made public (and I wouldn't expect to need to know those reasons, though I would of course be curious) and then still revealed your details that would have to be considered malicious and totally unnacceptable.

That's how I see it. What seems to be happening too often in these disputes is that the friends/supporters of X (in this case Will S.) can't seem to accept the difference between the two scenarios and always seem to seek to lessen the charge from deliberate abuse to 'human error' not recognising that this makes them complicit and exacerbates one man's ignorance into a community's ignorance.

I have to say I do understand this urge to give people the benefit of doubt, but there are times, like this, when we have to face facts, some of our friends may be good people in lots of ways, but they have this deep flaw we have to adress. I hope my friends will tell me when i get it wrong.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ungemmed
2009-03-04 03:16 pm UTC (link)
I am prepared to accept that the initial outing was accidental. However, I feel that if Shetterly were truly interested in minimizing damage, then he'd have shown more grace in redacting Mely's RL name. Instead, he's tried to use her desire for anonymity as a bludgeon. I find this declasse at best.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bookgirlwa
2009-03-04 12:01 pm UTC (link)
Hi. I have been reading the various posts on and off about all of this, and I'd just like to say I am appalled and disgusted at the way you have been treated. The attacks on you have been so out of line, and I truly hope that the outing of you by Will Shetterley (who had previously been on my list of authors I hadn't yet read but meant to get around to - he's not on that list any more, hell will freeze over before I buy or read anything written by such a bigoted, racist, classist, arrogant scumbag) and others hasn't caused you any harm from others in any area of your life.

Just wanted to add my voice in support of you. All the best.

(Reply to this)


[info]daedala
2009-03-04 12:06 pm UTC (link)
I am so sorry.

I am torn between not engaging, and tearing him a new one (via comments). I am sure that engaging is not helpful; but I also know that my kind of job is somewhat sensitive, and so I benefit by this surety. I am uncomfortable with my privilege. :(

The complicity from the people who thought it was so important to protect racists is deafening.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]loligo
2009-03-04 02:31 pm UTC (link)
The complicity from the people who thought it was so important to protect racists is deafening.

Yes. This. There have been so many aspects of RaceFail 09 that were horrifying and enraging, but in terms of being *disappointing*, this might top the list. It turns out that huge numbers of SF fans are spineless suck-ups who either can't think for themselves or don't have the guts to speak up.

(I mean, yeah, many of the same people who are silent now were saying stupid, racist, defensive things during the part of this imbroglio where we were actually discussing racism, but that was sadly predictable. So, "enraging" maybe, but not "disappointing". But this now is pure spinelessness on an issue that they should have *no* trouble comprehending because it could just as easily pertain to them.)

Fail upon fail.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]daedala, 2009-03-04 03:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ninhursag
2009-03-04 12:15 pm UTC (link)
Ugh. I've only been following this mess peripherally but it is all so unfathomable and rage making. I can't imagine how much it must suck for you and you have my sympathies. :(

(Reply to this)


[info]buymeaclue
2009-03-04 12:26 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry, again, that this is happening.

FWIW, I think you're handling it with a great deal of courage and dignity.

(Reply to this)


[info]moondancerdrake
2009-03-04 12:33 pm UTC (link)
HUGS! Well if my post yesterday was any cue, this fan gal has your back.
:)

(Reply to this)


[info]coffeehouse
2009-03-04 12:43 pm UTC (link)
I used to read Shetterly and TNH. I had never seen or heard of Katherine Cramer before she started flaming you.
I stopped reading Shetterly about 4 years ago because his posts were getting preachy, he and TNH were starting to believe their own hype, and mostly just because they got boring.
I added you to my friends list awhile back because you are interesting, great humor, and your reviews are spot on.

I'm really sorry that you got caught in their troll-fire. They are bullies. They feed off each other and I thought this kind of shit had stopped when the Yahoo forums as they were got shut down.

(Reply to this)


[info]akamarykate
2009-03-04 12:56 pm UTC (link)
I don't...I can't wrap my head around the kind of person it takes to do something like this to someone like you. The amount of deliberate cluelessness, and now malice, is astonishing. I'm so sorry.

(Reply to this)


[info]carlanime
2009-03-04 12:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm really sorry you're being bullied. *hugs* Their efforts to derail are beyond pathetic, and well into "hateful arrogance" territory.

(Reply to this)


[info]ficangel
2009-03-04 01:01 pm UTC (link)
I am so, so sorry that all of this is happening to you. You're being far classier in the handling of it than they deserve.

(Reply to this)


[info]sasha_feather
2009-03-04 01:40 pm UTC (link)
I'm so sorry! Agree with you wholeheartedly; the SF community should shun him/them.

(Reply to this)


[info]jamiam
2009-03-04 01:50 pm UTC (link)
Are you familiar with the sort of mentality that requires someone to have the last word? Because not have the last word means they've lost the argument? I know they're talking about you, I know they're misrepresenting you and your words, I know they're actually out to commit harm, but... you have to be the one who starts the shunning, and you have to do it by not responding anymore to these people's responses. Negative reinforcement is still reinforcement, etc. etc... you have to just let them have the last word.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]coffeeandink
2009-03-04 02:58 pm UTC (link)
Oh, no, I think you are completely right. But aside from the "primal scream of rage" aspect, I felt that it was important to get out there what I wanted to be done. For the record.

I mean, I am not holding my breath for WS doing any of the things I've suggested. I am rather more angry about the rational people who are not shunning WS.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]jamiam, 2009-03-04 05:16 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cucumberseed
2009-03-04 02:01 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry I did not twig to this in time to say more, and FWIW, you can consider both of them on my shun, snub and be rude list.

(Reply to this)


[info]lanning
2009-03-04 02:07 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this post. We don't know each other, but I just wanted to offer the sympathy and support of a stranger, such as it is. I've been stalked in the past, and I know only too well that there are perfectly honorable, valid reasons for the use of pseudonyms on the internet. Mr. Shetterly's actions are despicable, and his attempts to justify his actions are beneath contempt. I don't believe he will be shunned, either; he has too much power. But he should be.

Good luck and take care.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]starpaint
2009-03-04 02:27 pm UTC (link)
Seconding that motion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pandarus, 2009-03-04 03:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gimcrackchimera, 2009-03-04 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tangledwood, 2009-03-06 02:20 am UTC (Expand)

[info]spiralsheep
2009-03-04 02:36 pm UTC (link)
For what it's worth, which is sadly very little, this post has my full support.

(Reply to this)


[info]chiromancy
2009-03-04 02:42 pm UTC (link)
I am so, so sorry this is happening to you. His behavior has been so wrongheaded, dismissive, and degrading. It makes me seethe with rage on your behalf, and I am going to do some serious sitting-on-hands in order to stick to your DO NOT ENGAGE directive.

...You know, stuff like this is exactly why I'm no longer an "active" F&SF fan. I used to be. I used to buy fantasy. I used to buy science fiction. I used to actively throw some of my consumer dollars at people making a go of it in genre fiction. Back in high school, I used to recommend Shetterly's YA books Elsewhere and Nevernever to other readers. I stopped doing that quite a while ago. Now when I read F&SF it's by chance, incidental. Despite all the progress, women with brains are still pretty much unwelcome to use them in genre fiction and fandom, and people of color are still systematically marginalized, both on the page and as thinking readers and writers.

I know, I know, this is true everywhere. Racism is everywhere. Sexism is everywhere. But fuck if I'm going to support an industry, a community, where I have observed that your passionate, intelligent, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is treated like heresy, and where people like WS have carte blanche (HA HA) to be as insulting, defensive, and wildly illogical as they like, just because it keeps everyone comfy.

I'm not comfy. I'm a young, moderately educated, able-bodied white woman, and your profound discomfort makes me NOT COMFY, and it's why I don't really participate in this fandom. Sigh. This is ranty, and probably not what you are after. Basically, you're very tough, and very smart, and I hope the morons don't manage to get you down too much. This whole thing makes me want to be a better Silently Opposing Force, or a better ally when needed, or whatever. I guess I will be over here taking a crack at the 50 Books list, or something.

Sometime when you're not busy being kicked by the internet, I would love to talk to you about some books you like, maybe, and some books I like.

(Reply to this)

I'm sorry.
[info]dakiwiboid
2009-03-04 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Please allow me to offer my sympathy and support. Believe me, more fans are horrified by the situation than you know, and many have kept silent in their horror. I don't want to be counted among the silent any more.

(Reply to this)


[info]cereta
2009-03-04 03:01 pm UTC (link)
There is no excuse for his behavior. None.

(Reply to this)


[info]laurashapiro
2009-03-04 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Your courage is inspirational.

(Reply to this)


(148 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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