Mely ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2009-01-19 18:17:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Entry tags:class, fandom, gcadod09, race, sf/f, will shetterly is an abusive asshole

Will Shetterly: DO NOT ENGAGE
I am not putting this public just because I banned [info]willshetterly a few years ago and I think it's tacky to make a public post warning people against him that he cannot comment on. But I am willing to be tacky in front of my friends! Never mind, I will be tacky in front of the world. It is worth it if I can spare someone the pain of attempting to argue with Shetterly.

My best advice is to ban him from your LJ and NOT ENGAGE. Seriously, in the first IBARW, he did a post on how his life would not have been any different if he'd been born black, which had comments threads in the hundreds, and included comments from many of his personal friends saying, Will, you don't get it, you're being clueless, you're offending people, SHUT UP, and he would not shut up. (He deleted his LJ before recreating it again, or I'd link you to the post. [info]sparkymonster has some saved quotes in the link below.) He may be fine off-line--he was, in fact, very kind to me the one time I met him at a con--but online he makes ad hominem attacks, false accusations, straw-man arguments, weird personal assumptions about people who disagree with him, shifts ground when cornered, does not respond to logic, and sounds like a total racist. Logic will not penetrate. He is in his own world. Do not join him there.

Also, for the record, I do think class is a significant axis of oppression separate from but interacting with race and gender. I just don't think it's the root oppression that is the basis of all other oppression, or that eliminating class injustice will magically cause other forms of prejudice and injustice to fade away.

eta 1/23/09:
[info]sparkymonster kindly compiled the Greatest Misses of Will Shetterly, for those of you who understandably would prefer documentation rather than my bare word:

Will explains why the problem of black men being unable to get a cab in New York is a classist accusation against cab drivers (LA Times: New York targets biased cab drivers in sting)

Will explains how racism doesn't affect middle-class black people

Will schools the Angry Black Woman on Malcolm X's colorblindness

Will explains diversity issues in SF/F to Tobias Buckell

Will defines racism for the Angry Black Woman

{via [info]marydell} Will explains how Katrina had nothing to do with racism

[info]spiralsheep sums it all up for us with the Will Shetterly Bingo Card (conceived by [info]brown_betty and executed by [info]kadath)

eta 1/24: This is Will's response to this post.


Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(229 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]bossymarmalade
2009-01-19 11:28 pm UTC (link)
This isn't tacky, it's a cautionary sticky-note. Saves the rest of us the waste of time and eventual head-exploding frustration!

(Reply to this)


[info]la_vie_noire
2009-01-19 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Also, for the record, I do think class is a significant axis of oppression separate from but frequently interacting with race and gender. I just don't think it's the root oppression that is the basis of all other oppression, or that eliminating class injustice will magically cause other forms of prejudice and injustice to fade away.

Thank you. And that's, if you could magically eliminate without even considering other forms of oppression, or without creating another form of oppression that will replace the class one.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]nellorat
2009-01-23 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Also, even if both ideas in the final sentence were true, it would still make sense to talk about individual kinds of oppression and injustice that do still exist in the here and now.

Please forgive me if I link this to my hobby-horse, but that approach seems somewhat like that of doctors who think all ill-health would be cured by not being fat. OK, even if that were true, I'm here, I'm fat, and I have, say, an infected toe, so what are you going to do about it now? (Fortunately, good doctors--who will treat the toe--can be gotten.)

At best, even if the basic assumption is true, insisting on talking about class instead of race is bad thinking, shifting off the present for some utopian future.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]veejane
2009-01-19 11:44 pm UTC (link)
I think it's time his name become an internet law. Like, The Law of Shetterly Conservation: As any discussion continues to engage American social issues, the chance of a concern troll interrupting to insist that everyone is talking about the wrong issue approaches 100%. Corollary: Aforementioned interruptor will without fail disbelieve the existence of intersectionality.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]tenar
2009-01-20 12:08 am UTC (link)
seconding this!

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2009-01-20 02:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2009-01-20 03:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2009-01-20 03:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2009-01-20 05:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2009-01-20 04:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sethb, 2009-01-23 06:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2009-01-23 02:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]twa_in_yin, 2009-01-20 08:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2009-01-20 03:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-21 08:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cpolk, 2009-01-28 12:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]veejane, 2009-01-20 03:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2009-01-20 03:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rydra_wong, 2009-01-23 03:04 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]annafdd
2009-01-19 11:55 pm UTC (link)
By strange synchronicity, I was remembering an anecdote almost precisely like this regarding Will Shetterly about three hours ago. Might even have been the same. The chorus of friends saying "Will, please, *please* shut up" was present then as well.

It's his completely dumb strategy of debate that so puzzles me. I can't understand what he hopes to accomplish. I can only say sadly that if this is the dialectic style that American Socialists have adopted, I suddenly realize how American Socialism came to be in such a sorry state.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]marinarusalka
2009-01-20 12:03 am UTC (link)
I'm pretty sure Shetterly considers himself a Libertarian, not a Socialist. Of course, American Libertarianism is in a pretty sorry state, too. :-P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-20 12:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marinarusalka, 2009-01-20 12:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2009-01-20 01:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redbird, 2009-01-20 01:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marinarusalka, 2009-01-20 02:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]joycemocha, 2009-01-23 04:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bibliofile, 2009-03-05 01:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mamculuna, 2009-01-20 01:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cimness, 2009-01-20 02:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mattador, 2009-01-20 02:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marinarusalka, 2009-01-20 02:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athenejen, 2009-01-28 07:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]londonkds, 2009-01-20 07:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]annafdd, 2009-01-20 09:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-01-20 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 07:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]upstart_crow
2009-01-20 12:03 am UTC (link)
Huh.

I know a lot of people who are completely kind and generous offline, yet engage in idiocy either online or in print. I wonder why that is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]kyuuketsukirui
2009-01-20 12:15 am UTC (link)
I think this Penny Arcade generally explains it. :p

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adrian_turtle, 2009-01-20 03:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2009-01-20 03:18 am UTC (Expand)
Many of them are not *completely* kind and generous offline - [info]bellatrys, 2009-01-21 01:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]mamculuna
2009-01-20 12:23 am UTC (link)
What an evil guy he is! I not only withdrew from anything related to him, for a long time I even withdrew from anybody associated with him. I am very disturbed by his constant reiteration of Chinese propaganda against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan freedom in general (I know I'm somewhat biased in my view, but I can talk to some Chinese about this, but not WS).

Lately I've decided that guilt by association was ridiculous in his case, and was only costing me the pleasures of reading Elizabeth Bear et al, but I still can't go back to Shadow Unit.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]faithhopetricks
2009-01-20 11:28 am UTC (link)
I am very disturbed by his constant reiteration of Chinese propaganda against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan freedom in general

ARGH I THINK I REMEMBER THAT ONE TOO. //applies desk directly to the forehead

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2009-01-20 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 06:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2009-01-20 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2009-01-21 04:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2009-01-23 01:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mamculuna, 2009-01-20 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kidkoala, 2009-01-20 10:41 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]vom_marlowe
2009-01-20 12:51 am UTC (link)
My best advice is to ban him from your LJ and NOT ENGAGE.

YES. A thousand times yes.

Of course, it might be tacky for me to say this as I, too, have banned him, but I feel it was fully justified.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-20 01:05 am UTC (link)
He's started up with the line about how antiracists don't care if people are poor, we just want poverty distributed equally among races. MUST FOLLOW OWN ADVICE. DO NOT ENGAGE.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vom_marlowe, 2009-01-20 01:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-01-20 04:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-20 05:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-01-20 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]machineplay, 2009-01-23 05:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]snippy, 2009-01-23 05:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]machineplay, 2009-01-23 05:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]snippy, 2009-01-23 05:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mishalak, 2009-01-23 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]machineplay, 2009-01-23 11:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pecunium, 2009-01-26 04:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jamiam, 2009-01-20 05:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]joycemocha, 2009-01-23 04:53 am UTC (Expand)

[info]cofax7
2009-01-20 01:19 am UTC (link)
LaT started engaging with him on my behalf, although if she'd asked, I would have told her to save her electrons for someone more deserving.

After seeing him in action previously (remember when he called [info]nestra a homophobe?), I am not bothered in the least by his opinion.

Shadow Unit is a concern, but I think I shall simply close my eyes to the author's names, and keep reading. I want to find out what happens!

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-20 01:24 am UTC (link)
LaT's analysis of his Very Special Understanding of grammar was *awesome*, but then LaT generally is.

(remember when he called [info]nestra a homophobe?)

[info]sparkymonster just mentioned elsewhere that time he decided that the story about black men being unable to get cabs in NYC was classist and derogatory towards cab drivers. Somebody should compile the Greatest Misses of Will Shetterly. Somebody who is not me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 02:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juliansinger, 2009-01-20 03:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elynross, 2009-01-20 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]juliansinger
2009-01-20 01:48 am UTC (link)
He posted in his own (resurrected just for the occasion!) LJ, and I made a few comments of the 'this generalization does not mean that fact' variety, just to have it on the record, and now I'm done, for the moment.

(Reply to this)

Will Shetterly IHU
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:27 am UTC (link)
Case in point about [info]willshetterly

(orig context, since deleted http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/53471.html)

Will Shetterly (willshetterly) replied to your LiveJournal comment in which
you said:

> I wish someone would do a taxi test with a middle class black and a
> "trailer trash" white. For those who want to play the oppression
> hierarchy game, the result would be interesting.

> Michael Moore did with Yaphett Kotto and a poor white man who had an
> extensive criminal record. The result was..the taxi drivers kept on
> driving past the black man to pick up the white man.

> Kotto is a reasonably well off, well known black actor. Someone you feel
> has become "green" and yet, couldn't get a taxi. Every few years there is
> a huge scandal when a rich or well known black person is unable to get a
> cab in NYC. Their "greenness" has done jack all for them. When I'm in NYC
> I consistently have to ask my white friends to hail cabs for me. It's
> humiliating, degrading and frustrating.

> I am curious to see how you will explain these situations are still all
> about classism. Also, since you've also stated that racism does not
> negatively affect the self-esteem of middle class black people, I'd like
> you to consider how knowing that any white person is more acceptable than
> you might affect your self-esteem.

Their reply was:

I kind of remember the test, but, much as I love Michael Moore, he's a
rich white liberal who'll cheat sometimes. I forget the details. Did the
guy look like "trailer trash"?

And I don't mean to suggest it's all classism, honest. There are racist
taxi drivers. No question.

But as for the last, I've got a hell of a lot of black friends who reject
the idea that "any white person is more acceptable than you." My favorite
one calls it a manifestation of stupidism, which, I think, sums up the
feeling of many. Yes, there are racist idiots out there. And sexist ones.
And classist ones. And homophobic ones. They're stupid. That's the
important part of the equation. If Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas can
screw up both of our lives, I think there's a bigger problem than racism
we need to deal with.

...
Will Shetterly (willshetterly) replied to your LiveJournal comment in which
you said:

> And I have to admit the taxi test smells of class bigotry to me.

> Seriously, what the fuck? How can what is a clear cut example of people
> making racially based decisions to deny someone service actually be about
> class bigotry?

Their reply was:

Racist taxi drivers are racists. But talking as if all taxi drivers are
racists is making a class assumption about a specific set of blue collar
workers.

Edited at 2009-01-20 02:30 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:30 am UTC (link)
(orig context, since deleted http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/53471.html)
Will Shetterly (willshetterly) replied to your LiveJournal comment in which
- Hide quoted text -
you said:

> Of course OJ is an anomaly in the experience of African Americans. The
> point is that he's not an anomaly in the experience of the rich. By
> becoming rich, he becomes green, not black.

> Actually he doesn't. Rich black people face a lot of the same racially
> based discrimination out in the world that non rich black people face. A
> classic example would be an utter inability to get a cab to stop in the
> streets of NYC. Or having people assume their car doesn't belong to them.
> I'm confident that (pre-murder trial) OJ walking down the street woudl
> have been recoil in fear and nervousness.

> I'd also point out that class markers on black people are often ignored
> in favor of the bigger marker of race. Dressed up in my fancy college
> interview clothes, I had someone mistake me for a homeless person and
> toss money into the empty cup I was holding in my hand. The person
> tossing me money ignored the class markers I was displaying and saw
> "black person with cup" = homeless. This was not an isolated event. I
> often have people ignoring what I would consider my fairly obvious class
> markers (in terms of how I talk, how I dress, etc) in favor of what they
> perceive my class is based on my skin tone.

> I'd also remind you that having Delaney as a role model for writing
> fantasy would do jack all about the institutionalized racism in the
> publishing industry (and sci-fi fandom). Look at the dearth of writers
> who are black. Do you think that is just a random coincidence?

Their reply was:

"Dressed up in my fancy college interview clothes, I had someone mistake
me for a homeless person and toss money into the empty cup I was holding
in my hand. The person tossing me money ignored the class markers I was
displaying and saw "black person with cup" = homeless."

Yeah, that's stupidism at its purest. What did you do with the money?

As for the writers, about the time I began paying attention to their
race, I was reading Delany and Frank Yerby. They would've told me that I
could be a black writer--and they did tell me that I could be a writer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 02:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 02:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 02:32 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]veejane, 2009-01-20 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-20 03:40 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 03:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-20 03:58 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 04:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-20 02:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-20 05:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-23 07:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-23 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]machineplay, 2009-01-23 05:07 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-23 02:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]machineplay, 2009-01-23 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]nojay, 2009-01-23 06:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-23 07:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-23 07:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-03-12 05:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-23 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-03-12 05:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]joycemocha, 2009-01-23 05:02 am UTC (Expand)
Common People - [info]lostwanderfound, 2009-01-23 08:19 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]badgerbag, 2009-01-23 05:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-23 05:38 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]veejane, 2009-01-20 04:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-20 04:22 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]veejane, 2009-01-20 04:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 04:27 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]rachelmanija, 2009-01-20 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2009-01-23 08:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]veejane, 2009-01-23 01:08 pm UTC (Expand)
hold on JUST A DAMN MINUTE. - [info]delux_vivens, 2009-01-23 11:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: hold on JUST A DAMN MINUTE. - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-24 03:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-20 04:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]veejane, 2009-01-20 04:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]skywardprodigal, 2009-01-20 02:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]faithhopetricks, 2009-01-20 11:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 02:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 02:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-20 02:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]rosefox, 2009-01-23 05:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-23 05:54 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - (Anonymous), 2009-01-20 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]wychwood, 2009-01-23 12:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Wil Shetterly on Malcom X's color blindness
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:39 am UTC (link)
http://theangryblackwoman.com/2007/04/23/things-you-need-to-understand-5-color-blindness/#comment-9508

Will Shetterly schools us all on Malcom X (SORRY s El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz ) and how he was totally color blind. Also, this was happening during my first WisCon.

Best comment in the thread "Will, are actually reading the post or any of the comments? (Or did you decided to swoop in and save us Black people from our own ignorance of our own history?) If you did, you would recognize that Malcolm X’s quotes are not examples of colorblindness."

Edited at 2009-01-20 02:40 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)
Re: Wil Shetterly on Malcom X's color blindness
[info]mystickeeper
2009-01-20 04:39 am UTC (link)
Oh, God!!!

I knew that he was....Epic Failure, but I just...had no idea how bad it really was! I don't even know what to say! Oh my God!

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Wil Shetterly on Malcom X's color blindness - [info]marydell, 2009-01-23 05:50 am UTC (Expand)
Will Shetterly vs. Tobias Buckell
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:44 am UTC (link)
http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2007/05/08/diversity-in-fiction-markets/#comment-41797

Will Shetterly shares his opinions about diversity in fiction markets in Tobias Buckell's blog.



There are at least two ways the “Delany, Butler, etc.” list gets used. On the sfwa lj, one writer was wishing that SFWA did more to promote diversity. Anyone who has read Dogland knows that diversity has always been a concern of mine, but that doesn’t mean I think every organization should be devoted to diversity. I don’t see it as part of sfwa’s mandate, and I think the “Delany, Butler, etc.” list is evidence that sfwa itself is not a racist organization. Specifically, if it was, it seems to me that Delany or Butler or any of the very fine et ceteras would’ve spoken up. To suggest that they were afraid to speak up or too blind to see the racism around them seems awfully insulting.

Secondly, too often, race is used as a way to avoid talking about class. Factor in class, and you’ll find that most writers are middle-class and upper-class, regardless of race. Delany certainly came from a background of privilege. But just as there’s a shortage of poor innercity writers, there’s a shorter of poor rural writers, too. Poverty cuts across race; there are twice as many whites living below the poverty line as blacks or Hispanics. By focusing on race, the problem seems much smaller than it actually is.

http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2007/05/08/diversity-in-fiction-markets/#comment-41847


Sure, I’ll say it: SFWA and publishing don’t represent the racial or the economic realities in the US. This wasn’t news in the mid ’80s when I joined with a novel about a dark-skinned woman, and it isn’t news today. Has anyone claimed otherwise?

I pointed out on the SFWA LJ that any SFWAn who wanted to start a SFWA diversity committee could–I really can’t imagine the Board vetoing it. Committees within SFWA seem to be free to do anything that fits vaguely within SFWA’s agenda. If you (meaning any SFWAn reading this) want to do something about this within SFWA, go to the Board. If there was the slightest resistance, you’d be able to get an enormous petition of support in an instant.

But what do you do? Start having quotas for stories and covers and authors? How many points for a woman? How many for someone with brown skin? Do Asians count the same, or are they worth less ’cause they’re not as dark? Do you get any points for poor white males, or are all white males the same?

Sure, acknowledging the problem is the first step. It’s been acknowledged for most of the twentieth century. What’s step two?

http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2007/05/08/diversity-in-fiction-markets/#comment-41855


Also, when was the last story with a nonwhite protagonist given a white person on the cover? I know the last time it happened to me: 1986. Witch Blood, an Asian-influenced fantasy, got a cover with a couple of white guys fighting on the parapets of a Europeanish castle.

Ace Books was not terribly enlightened in those days.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Will Shetterly vs. Tobias Buckell
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:46 am UTC (link)
Tobias Buckell says..well AWESOMENESS

http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2007/05/08/diversity-in-fiction-markets/#comment-41909
will shetterly

Sure, I’ll say it: SFWA and publishing don’t represent the racial or the economic realities in the US. This wasn’t news in the mid ’80s when I joined with a novel about a dark-skinned woman, and it isn’t news today. Has anyone claimed otherwise?

TB: Some people seem to think so. The fact that I’ve never been able to just post or say outloud that SF has a diversity problem without a huge amount of offended mail and hurt people who then argue about what caused it and who’s fault it is indicates there’s a lot of awareness to go.

I pointed out on the SFWA LJ that any SFWAn who wanted to start a SFWA diversity committee could–I really can’t imagine the Board vetoing it. Committees within SFWA seem to be free to do anything that fits vaguely within SFWA’s agenda. If you (meaning any SFWAn reading this) want to do something about this within SFWA, go to the Board. If there was the slightest resistance, you’d be able to get an enormous petition of support in an instant.

TB: Where am I recommending that SFWA do anything? All I did was point out that the diversity of authors was lacking.

But what do you do? Start having quotas for stories and covers and authors? How many points for a woman? How many for someone with brown skin? Do Asians count the same, or are they worth less ’cause they’re not as dark? Do you get any points for poor white males, or are all white males the same?

TB: With all due respect, Will, WHAT THE FUCK? Who said anything about quotas, are you intentionally trying to derail this conversation. What gives? I’m not sure what you’re trying to do, but it’s not appreciated. [emphasis added] You’re putting words that were never in my mouth.

I think it’s remarkably illuminating that all I’ve done was point out that SF has a diversity problem, and everyone is throwing arguments at me and throwing their hands up saying ‘but what can we do’ and running off down paths.

Sure, acknowledging the problem is the first step. It’s been acknowledged for most of the twentieth century. What’s step two?

TB: Really, because I’m seeing a lot of resistance and defensiveness the moment I point it out, and I still see and hear authors taking discussions of diversity and derailing them with all sorts of other issues.

Again, had it not been a problem, responses to my post would have run more like this:

“Yeah, you’re right, that’s embarrasing. Do you have any thoughts on how we might be able to fix that issue?”

Instead I have a lot of defensive white people getting offended, leaving the discussion, or changing the topic away from the initial comment.

Now, as someone who likes having friendly discussions about race, I feel slapped down, because this is usually the exact pattern I get whenever I say ‘SF isn’t diverse.’ First the usual names get invoked like a charm. When I point out the ridiculousness of that I get defensive ‘I don’t see race’ and ‘how dare you try and make quotas’ response.

It’s almost stereotypical, although we’ve avoided a good amount of here, I’m still croggled that all I have to do is point out a simple fact and watch people work themselves up into a bunch of assumptions about what I’m saying, proposing, and accusing them of.

Why is that, do you wonder?

Thanks to most if not all of you for remaining calm

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly vs. Tobias Buckell - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 02:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly IHU - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-20 03:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly vs. Tobias Buckell - [info]rydra_wong, 2009-01-20 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Will Shetterly vs. Tobias Buckell - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-20 06:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Will tells the Angry Black Woman what racism really is
[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-20 02:55 am UTC (link)
http://theangryblackwoman.com/2006/05/07/some-things-you-need-to-understand-1/#comment-20483
Power equals a fist, a gun, simple superiority in numbers. When blacks beat someone they see as “white”, they have power, and they are prejudiced, even by your definition.

That’s not reverse racism. That’s pure racism.

And, yes, I’m posting this because someone in the f&sf community was beaten for being in a black neighborhood. Maybe his case will prove to have been something other than racism–the police maintain that the Newsom-Christian case was not racially motivated–but the idea that no black has harmed a white for racial reasons is naive at best. If you see the world in racial terms and hurt someone for the simple reason of being of a “race” you hate, you are racist.

http://theangryblackwoman.com/2006/05/07/some-things-you-need-to-understand-1/#comment-20516
Here’s the American Heritage on “racism”:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

You really think those don’t apply to blacks who target people of other races? I am trying to listen here, honest.

http://theangryblackwoman.com/2006/05/07/some-things-you-need-to-understand-1/#comment-20518
A white who is beaten by a group of blacks who are prejudiced and a black who is beaten by a group of whites who are racist are both victims of “power plus prejudice”, and they’ll hurt equally badly.

A side note: here’s an essay I liked: Race, class, and “whiteness theory” by Sharon Smith. The bit about the disfranchisement of poor white voters thanks to poll taxes was especially interesting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Will tells the Angry Black Woman what racism really is
[info]cimness
2009-01-20 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for collecting all of these! I think my "pissed off" meter topped off around the fourth discussion or something and now I'm just laughing incredulously and making more and more O.o-faces. And wow, I mean, just the basic inability to reason and dogged "racism doesn't exist!" was wtfery enough, but this is just... so much crazy. What do you do with that?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]heyiya
2009-01-20 03:14 am UTC (link)
I will stop now. I remember that post from the first IBARW--I hadn't made the connection that he was the same guy. Ick.

It would be interesting to have a conversation about race/class intersections without people running around bare-assed all through the middle of it. It's something I think about a lot, since it's through experience of class-based marginalization that I gained a lot of my more personal understanding of power structures though I have now, doubtless helped immeasurably by white privilege, more or less moved up the ladder.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]shewhohashope
2009-01-20 03:49 am UTC (link)
I'm considering writing a up post about this, but I don't want to deal with Sh*tterly and co.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2009-01-20 04:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shewhohashope, 2009-01-20 04:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shewhohashope, 2009-01-20 03:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]heyiya, 2009-01-20 04:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]troubleinchina, 2009-01-20 03:20 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lavendertook
2009-01-20 03:26 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this.

(Reply to this)


[info]fire_fly
2009-01-20 01:45 pm UTC (link)
At first I found it massively upsetting, but now it's just getting ridiculous.

So he's actually lying about his class background for creds? And bunging up socialist theory while he's at it (seriously, this shit would get laughed out of most contemporary socialist discussion groups), while ignoring the huge long history of organised working class racism? Stating that calling someone racist is racist? AND ESPECIALLY THE COMPLETE AND UTTER INDIAN HISTORY FAIL (if you want an itemised list you just need to say the word, or any word really).

It's not that I think he needs to be argued with, it's that I think his shit needs to be debunked aggressively because I've seen it used in massively abusive ways. It's just more effective if it's located at the source.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-20 02:00 pm UTC (link)
It's not that I think he needs to be argued with, it's that I think his shit needs to be debunked aggressively because I've seen it used in massively abusive ways. It's just more effective if it's located at the source.

That absolutely makes sense! I've just seen so many friends get burned by him, I want to warn people that they should try to be aware that the only benefit is for third parties, and that Shetterly will not engage in honest argument, and will make up hurtful and insulting arguments about you that he will continue to present as fact forever.

I would love to see an itemized response to the Indian history fail, either at his post or in your LJ, by the way, if you really do have time and inclination. [info]deepad currently has an exploding LJ and shouldn't have to deal with Shetterly's bullshit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fire_fly, 2009-01-21 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]athenejen, 2009-01-28 07:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fire_fly, 2009-01-28 10:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fire_fly, 2009-01-21 04:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shewhohashope, 2009-01-20 05:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-20 10:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bossymarmalade, 2009-01-23 06:31 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cereta
2009-01-20 03:14 pm UTC (link)
It is amazing to me how many, diverse events over the last year have won me over to the practice of pre-emptive banning.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-20 10:47 pm UTC (link)
I *KNOW*! I used to have a three-strikes policy, which I hardly ever implemented, but I have realized that there are some people I just do not want to talk to, and I might as well save us both pain by not talking to them.

I say "us both", but really, I mean "me". And I'm okay with that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]latxcvi, 2009-01-22 02:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-22 02:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cereta, 2009-01-22 02:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]latxcvi, 2009-01-22 03:22 am UTC (Expand)

[info]abyssinia4077
2009-01-20 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the warning to not engage...I just went over there to look (despite the "protect your eyes!" warning on Rydra's journal) and I swear he and his supporter-in-comments just declared that racism was designed to keep down (poor) white people.
*boggles*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]icecreamempress
2009-01-20 05:28 pm UTC (link)
Okay, that's nuts.

It is true (as in, documentable) that there have been both formal and informal efforts by the American elites to stoke the fires of racism so that the poor white people and the poor people of color fought amongst themselves and left the plutocrats alone. This is still going on, and people like Richard Mellon Scaife have sunk millions and millions of dollars.

Saying that white plutocrats/kleptocrats have used racism in order to distract poor white people from class divides, which is true, does not mean that there's no such thing as racism, or that it's not an enormous social problem.

Because here's the thing: the plutocrats who fund racism are WHITE RACIST PLUTOCRATS, not some kind of rainbow coalition of bazillionaires.

Unless there's some kind of weird anti-Semitism conspiracy thing going on in there where Sh*tt*rly means to imply that a) all rich people are Jews, and b) Jews aren't white...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]abyssinia4077, 2009-01-20 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-20 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]abyssinia4077, 2009-01-21 03:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]annafdd, 2009-01-23 08:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ithiliana, 2009-01-20 09:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rivka, 2009-01-23 12:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-24 04:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]elynross
2009-01-20 06:46 pm UTC (link)
I just got a snide remark from him, but having already read sufficient of his attitude, it was easy to decide to just ignore him.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]elynross
2009-01-20 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and re: your last paragraph, when I saw him start claiming that classism is pervasive and institutional, but racism is discrete and based solely in action, I remembered reading something about his views on class and race earlier. And I'm really glad that I was introduced to the concept of Intersectionality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]ithiliana
2009-01-20 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Oh, my word. I'd gotten a sense of what he was like, a small taste, but this--wow. What an amazing thread. And thank you for posting--and for unlocking. That must have been hard.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-20 10:01 pm UTC (link)
It wasn't that hard. It makes me feel like a Mean Girl, but when I saw he'd made a friend cry by using the same foul tactics he uses as a general thing, I decided I could deal with the guilt and any loss of respect from people who think the post is an unwarranted personal attack.

Edited at 2009-01-20 10:02 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]faithhopetricks
2009-01-21 01:29 am UTC (link)
And yet he KEEPS COMING BACK! http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/224945.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]fire_fly
2009-01-21 04:37 am UTC (link)
The flounce that didn't flounce!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]faithhopetricks, 2009-01-21 02:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-21 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-21 05:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2009-01-23 08:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2009-01-21 05:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]faithhopetricks, 2009-01-21 02:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mckennl, 2009-03-04 01:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sleary, 2009-01-23 05:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]oyceter
2009-01-21 06:15 am UTC (link)
I am just now getting through this, and oh, oh, the summation of greatest moments! So enraging, and yet so hysterical after a while for the complete fail of logic!

(Reply to this)


[info]james_nicoll
2009-01-23 03:54 am UTC (link)
May I link to this? It's become relevant to my interests.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]coffeeandink
2009-01-23 04:11 am UTC (link)
Sure. Feel free to link to anything public. You may also want to point out [info]sparkymonster's list of Greatest Misses of Will Shetterly in the comments.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-01-23 04:33 am UTC (Expand)

[info]badgerbag
2009-01-23 04:52 am UTC (link)
Whoa! Thanks. I looked at his journal today and wondered if this was new or ongoing. Sounds like ongoing.

(Reply to this)


[info]badgerbag
2009-01-23 04:56 am UTC (link)
Wait, really, really, really, really ongoing stretching way far back and really egregious. It took me a week before I come across anyone just plain calling him out... then I hit this, and everyone's like "Yeah, I too have a story about this guy being really racist and weird".

Not that I'm clued in on fandom things in general but! That is kind of amazing that so many people defend him/take him all seriously etc!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-23 05:58 am UTC (link)
What actually kills me even more are people defending him by saying "Oh Will isn't really like that. I met him and he is totally nice/friendly/caring. He just gets that way sometimes on the internet. He is just so filled with passion about classim he can get a little out of control. But he doesn't mean anything racist." and I'm like o_O.

I also was struck by "someone is WRONG on the internet" syndrome answered a comment of his. And of course he left me three comments within 15 minutes which reminded me why I shouldn't do that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]darkrosetiger, 2009-01-23 06:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kita0610, 2009-01-24 10:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]badgerbag, 2009-01-23 06:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-23 01:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]icecreamempress, 2009-01-24 04:12 am UTC (Expand)
Our little stick figures can type away at each other! - [info]coffeeandink, 2009-01-23 02:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]heavenscalyx, 2009-01-23 03:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kynn, 2009-01-23 07:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juliansinger, 2009-01-24 08:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Oh, sure, totally nice/caring. - [info]dharma_slut, 2009-01-25 01:17 am UTC (Expand)

(229 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…